Lithium Battery FIRE Questions | Endless Sphere DIY EV Forum

marty

10 MW

Joined

Apr 19,

Messages

3,048

Location

Buffalo, New York USA

• Aug 20,

• #1

I see two types of lithium batteries. Cylindrical and pouches. Are the ones that sometimes catch on fire the pouch ones? Do the cylindrical cells ever catch on fire?

Reason I ask is I have been experimenting with Makita power tool battery packs. Does any one know of any fires involving these Makita cylindrical cells?

Copy details from:
Konion Makita LiMn battery care and feeding by Doctorbass
Post by Doctorbass » Fri May 06, 2:06 am
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=

Here are their specs:

V: ( the most popular for ebikes)
( same as the Sanyo’s URW)

-Voltage range: 3.0 to 4.2V
-Nominal voltage 3.7V
-Capacity: mAh(10C) to mAh(1C)
-Max Discharge C rate: 10C ( 15-16A)
-Max Charge C-rate: 1.5 to 2C depending on the cooling
-Cycle life: 700 cycles to 75% initial capacity ( from BMZ manufacture)
-Cycle life claimed by Makita: cycles
-Internal resistance 30miliohm per cells
-Released in ... still existing in



VT:

-Voltage range: 3.0 to 4.1 or 4.2V
-Nominal voltage 3.76V
-Capacity: mAh(10C), mAh, ( 1C) to mAh(0.1C)
-Max Discharge C rate: 15C ( 17-20A)... and 30A for 30 sec
-Max Charge C-rate: 3C depending on the cooling
-Cycle life: 500 cycles to 90% of initial capacity, at 2A discharge ( from BMZ manufacture)
-Cycle life claimed by Makita: cycles
-Internal resistance :initial is 25 miliohm ( 26-28 miliohm of used cells)
-Gravimetric energy94 Wh/kg
-Released in ... still existing in

el_walto

10 kW

Joined

Apr 25,

Messages

811

Location

Kamloops BC Canada

• Aug 20,

• #2

Yes, both types of cells can catch fire.
Here are some examples:
http://www.youtube.com/user/liveforphysics532#p/u/34/dree0rTr1HM

liveforphysics

100 TW

Joined

Oct 28,

Messages

14,539

Location

Manhattan Beach, CA, USA

• Aug 20,

• #3

Can or pouch makes no difference, other than the pouches not being able to explode with shrapnel, unlike the cans.

Those Mn based cells are about as safe as it gets.

Low performance LiFePO4 can be a little safer
.

Jozzer

100 kW

Joined

Apr 19,

Messages

1,069

Location

Swindon UK

• Aug 20,

• #4

Ironically, BMZ was the German battery producer who's factory burnt to the ground a few years back wasn't it?

Jozz

dogman dan

1 PW

Joined

May 17,

Messages

36,380

Location

Las Cruces New Mexico USA

• Aug 21,

• #5

Any factory can blow up. You should see some of the flour or corn starch explosions. Amazing what corn starch carburated just right can do. Blow the roof of a building to the next block.

marty

10 MW

Joined

Apr 19,

Messages

3,048

Location

Buffalo, New York USA

• Aug 28,

• #6

Lets only talk about these Makita power tool battery packs.

I watched Liveforphysic's video. See torches, heat guns, alligator clips, and who knows what else? Has there ever been a battery fire with these Makita batteries in the real world?
Drop a power tool off a roof.
Drive a truck over a power tool or bicycle battery.
Accident when building a large DoctorBass battery from Makita cells.
Charger or human malfunctions while charging.
Battery fires only. Not electrical fires. That's why we use fuses.

[Edit 1/28/12 replace attached picture]

Ratking

1 kW

Joined

May 20,

Messages

494

Location

Norway

• Aug 28,

• #7

Hello

I just wanted to make a Topic about this myself. The only difference is that I just made a makita cell burn
I don't know why it happened,
and I am a bit scared to use them in a big pack without learning how to take out the dangerous cells.
What happend is that I made a pack for my jet ski. It was made out of 3s12p and every battery was balanced before I used them. There was no big difference in cell voltage when I soldered them together and not a single cell become hot when I soldered. I used a 100w iron and used a sponge with cold water to cool the cell down fast.
The first cell catched fire under charging and started to crackle before a blue flame and gas poured out of the positive tab. I quickly separated the cell from the group with a plyer and managed to save the rest, but several other cells started to vent afterwards so I would not trust a used cell even if it where in perfect balance with the other cells unless a capacity and ballast check was made.

Hillhater

100 TW

Joined

Aug 3,

Messages

13,386

Location

Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

• Aug 28,

• #8

V: ( the most popular for ebikes)

How do you figure that ?
I would have said that the turnigy /Zippy pouches are the "most popular" ,..
...with possibly the cans being more popular than the 's ?

Edit..to correct op name

marty

10 MW

Joined

Apr 19,

Messages

3,048

Location

Buffalo, New York USA

• Aug 28,

• #9

Hillhater said:

marty said: V: ( the most popular for ebikes)

How do you figure that ?
I would have said that the turnigy /Zippy pouches are the "most popular" ,..
...with possibly the cans being more popular than the 's ?

I did not write that. I copy what Doctorbass wrote. Sorry if I did not use a "quote" box
Copy text from:
Konion Makita LiMn battery care and feeding by Doctorbass
Post by Doctorbass » Fri May 06, 2:06 am
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=

Hillhater

100 TW

Joined

Aug 3,

Messages

13,386

Location

Sydney ..(Hilly part !) .. Australia/ Down under !

• Aug 28,

• #10

Ah, OK sorry marty..i see now how you were quoting DB. ( and corrected my post)
I also see that he was referring to the V being the most popular of the 2 cells mentioned...
... not necessarily the most popular sell overall for ebikes.

marty

10 MW

Joined

Apr 19,

Messages

3,048

Location

Buffalo, New York USA

• Jan 28,

• #11

Getting ready to start charging and testing cells from used Makita power tool battery packs. Plan on working on the dining room table (The wife said it is OK :wink: ) Got a piece of James Hardie HardieBacker® 1/4" Board. Tested it with a torch. Cement board don't burn. Cut it the same size of the dining room table. Finished it with Coronado Aqua Plastic Waterborne Acrylic Urethane Clear 70-10 Gloss. Nice stuff left over from hardwood floor refinishing. Water base, it don't have that brain damage smell.

If something goes very wrong and I have a fire. How to put it out? Tossing batteries outside is not really a good option because we live on the second floor. Long way to run to the door.

A long time ago I learned the hard way. [Never put water on a grease fire] How do you put out a lithium battery fire?




Story time............
Marty and friends were about 10 years old. Parents not home "Lets make candles" Put wax in tin can. Put can on stove. Turn burner to high. Wax melts. Wax catches on fire. Small fire really not a problem. Put some water in a coffee cup. Pour water on fire. Now we have a BIG problem. Wax starts exploding and the whole kitchen somehow became coated with wax. Mom was not happy Marty spent days cleaning a coating of wax off of the walls, cabinets, ceiling and floor.

Better idea to put out a small wax / grease fire. COVER IT!

neptronix

Administrator

Joined

Jun 15,

Messages

20,504

Location

Utah, USA

• Jan 28,

• #12

If you are unsure of safety, see what UL certification for batteries involves.

But the most common testing methods, which will produce smoke, fire, or nothing are:

1) overcharge
2) overdischarge, then charge
3) puncture
4) current discharge spike
5) other things i can't think of..
6) overcharge, then puncture, then put a lighter up to any thing that oozes out of it ( AKA the Luke method )

So one thing you can do is buy a couple and see how they work in real life..

Pouches are great because the puffing is a warning that something has been going wrong with that cell. cylindrical cells are far less forgiving. I remember when the Macbook came out, the bottom of the laptop deforming was a great indicator that the lipo cells were ready to go, most likely giving the user a few days to. Then you had the Dells, which would just blow suddenly without warning. I think dells used cylindrical cells for a long time.

wimpy lifepo4 and NMC seem to be the safest again and again..

marty

10 MW

Joined

Apr 19,

Messages

3,048

Location

Buffalo, New York USA

• Jan 28,

• #13

My plan is to use every precaution to not make a fire. But if these Li-Ion cells do catch on fire? Should I dump sand on them? Should I pour water on them? Should I use a dry chemical fire extinguisher? Just run away and loudly tell everyone to leave the house?

Liveforphysics - How about some how to put out lithium battery fire videos.

Cylindrical Advantages

Compared to prismatic cells, cylindrical cells can be produced much faster so more KWh per cell can be produced every day equaling lower $ per KWh. The electrodes in a cylindrical cell are wound tightly and encased in a metal casing. This minimizes electrode material from breaking up from the mechanical vibrations, thermal cycling from charging and discharging, and mechanical expansion of the current conductors inside from thermal cycling. Many cells are combined in series and in parallel to increase voltage and capacity of the battery pack. If one cell goes bad, the impact on the entire pack is low. CHARGEX® cells bolt through lengthway circuit boards that will prevent a bad cell from shorting out the rest of the pack, allowing it to continue functioning with slightly reduced capacity. With prismatic cells if one cell goes bad it can compromise the whole battery pack. Cylindrical cells will also radiate heat and control temperature better than prismatic cells.

Link to sinopoly

Are you interested in learning more about Cylindrical Lithium-ion Cell? Contact us today to secure an expert consultation!

Related links:
Looking for a big 3 phase hybrid inverter ≥50 kWPrismatic Disadvantages

Compared to prismatic cells, cylindrical cells can be produced much faster so more KWh per cell can be produced every day equaling lower $ per KWh. The electrodes in a cylindrical cell are wound tightly and encased in a metal casing, This minimizes electrode material from breaking up from the mechanical vibrations, thermal cycling from charging and discharging and mechanical expansion of the current conductors inside from thermal cycling. Many cells are combined in series and in parallel to increase voltage and capacity of the battery pack, if one cell goes bad, the impact on the entire pack is low. CHARGEX® cells bolt through lengthway circuit boards that will prevent a bad cell from shorting out the rest of the pack, allowing it to continue functioning with slightly reduced capacity. With prismatic cells if one cell goes bad it can compromise the whole battery pack. Cylindrical cells will also radiate heat and control temperature better than prismatic cells. Prismatic cells are made up of many positive and negative electrodes sandwiched together leaving more possibility for short circuit and inconsistency. The higher capacity makes it difficult for the BMS to protect each cell from over charging and dissipating heat. The larger cell size minimizes the possibility for automation leading to a lower degree of consistency. The internal electrodes can easily expand and contract causing deformation which can lead to a internal short circuit and are more prone to swelling similar to lead batteries.

The company is the world’s best plastic prismatic lithium battery cell supplier. We are your one-stop shop for all needs. Our staff are highly-specialized and will help you find the product you need.